Monday, November 15, 2010

Interesting Posts and Articles #291

  1. At Life In Israel, remove your wig as a segulah to get pregnant. From the anti-sheitel crowd. This reminds of me the Imamother thread where shaving the head was promoted as a segulah to ward off cancer.
    .
    More recently, and a case of dog bites man, the dybbuk that wasn't. See also at Matzav. Basically, the fellow had a mental illness and faked having a dybbuk, just as in Rav Shternbuch's assessment. All those who said we are obligated to heed the opinion of the Gedolim, that the dybbuk was real, what say you now?
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    Also, even at the time, people were pointing at that in the previous dybbuk case, also with exorcism via Rav Batzra, the woman later confessed that it was a hoax. People dismissed this evidence. But what would they say now that this case also turned out to be a hoax? And just what sort of expert on dybbuks can be fooled in this way, twice?
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    Hey, if the Jewish people stop believing such nonsense, perhaps Rav Batzri can ply his trade elsewhere. The Catholic Church is looking for a few good men to perform exorcisms.
    .
    I'll end this by stating that not only was this not a case of a dybbuk, but there never was a case a dybbuk.
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  2. Perhaps related, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach on the Rise of the religious charlatans. First off, Torah Codes:
    What makes an even greater mockery of the codes is that the Torah today is somewhat imprecise in that some of the letters of the Hebrew alphabet can be replaced by vowels and we are not certain whether the vowel, or the letter itself, should be in certain passages. Insert a few of these missing letters and the codes become gibberish.

    But none of this has stopped a few Jewish outreach organizations, most notably Aish HaTorah, from employing the codes as a principal tool by which to attract young Jews to their tradition. Little do they realize that Christian missionaries are now putting the New Testament through computers to demonstrate, through their own codes, that Jesus is the foretold Messiah.
    Also,
    Over the past twenty years we have witnessed a slew of mostly fraudulent Cabbalists and questionable mystics running around the world and telling gullible Jews their future. Many are Rabbis who even claim illustrious pedigrees. The majority employ a classic 'cold reading' -- where without even realizing it, you end up supplying the information to the 'seer' who can really only see your wallet -- and are about as capable of telling the future as I am of playing in the NBA.
    You receive a private audience with these much sought-after Rabbis and they immediately wish you a speedy recovery for your ailing back. They tell you they know you're having tension with one of your children and that your dead mother has forgiven you for the time you forgot her birthday. They offer sop and comfort, but ask them anything truly useful, like when will the next bomb go off in Jerusalem so as to save innocents from dying -- and they stealthily change the subject. But that hasn't stopped wealthy, educated, and sophisticated Jews all over America from lining up around the block to line these charlatans pockets and get business and personal advice.
    Too true.
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  3. In another post, Rabbi Boteach with his perspective on homosexuality. Vos Iz Neias doesn't like it very much. And here. Oh, well.
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  4. Vos Iz Neias about children who are fleeing the fold, reporting the contents of Mishpacha Magazine.
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  5. A Yissachar / Zevulin relationship for Israeli hafganot? The obvious problem is that ain shliach lidvar aveira.
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  6. Rav Shmuel Auerbach, that we must follow the path of Gedolei HaDoros, rather than pursuing new things.
    We have an obligation to follow the path of the luminaries of the generations, not new things that we did not receive at Sinai through the tradition passed down to us throughout the generations. We must not get excited over new trends and not fear anything chas vesholom,” said HaRav Shmuel Auerbach shlita at a gathering in memory of HaRav Shach zt”l.
    The problem is that this is phrased so ambiguously that one wonders how one could not agree with it, or whether one agrees with it. Certainly there are aspects of our tradition that we maintain, and are proud that we maintain them. At the same time, there are new things which we do adopt. Zippers, and flush toilets, for example. I don't think anyone rejects them. But some people do reject Coca Cola,  pizza, and ice cream while others do not. Is the Brisker Derech a new trend, or was it? What about the new trend of despising work? I suspect, though I don't know, that this has to do with secular education.
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  7. I never got around to posting this, but here are post-Simchat Torah thoughts from Jewish Worker, about the length of hakafot.
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  8. One reason to appreciate our wonderful country -- in China, dissidents and petitioners are being locked up in mental wards.

61 comments:

Akiva said...

Precognition proven by science? Here it is.

Ok, maybe that doesn't prove the ability of a mekubal. Then again, I wonder if anyone has ever asked one if he wouldn't mind being subject to a double-blind psychic study?

Devorah said...

Re: the Shmuley Boteach article at the Huffington Post

(quote) "Oh G-d no. Not another Bible codes book. And this one launched in a full page ad in the New York Times highlighting how in May 2008 Oprah Winfrey sent a Bible code to Barack Obama that he would become President." (unquote)

Ummm.....Barack Obama DID become president. Was there a code found saying John McCain would become President? If there was, I didn't hear about it.

Why does Shmuley Boteach have his articles published in the Huffington Post, which is controlled by self admitted anti semite George Soros??? (see
http://shiratdevorah.blogspot.com/2010/11/tzures-from-soros.html)

I agree with him about the fortune tellers but the jury is still out on the Torah Codes. I prefer to listen to Rabbi Glazerson rather than Shmuley on this subject.

Just saying.....

S. said...

>>Little do they realize that Christian missionaries are now putting the New Testament through computers to demonstrate, through their own codes, that Jesus is the foretold Messiah.

Little do they realize?

joshwaxman said...

Devorah:
regarding a Torah codes matrix which includes John McCain and Sarah Palin, see here.

In terms of the Puffington Host, I would guess that Rabbi Boteach wishes to get as much an audience as possible -- one which includes many secular Jews. But as regards Soros, I recently saw a book you might like. I'll see if I can recall the author / title.

S.:
I don't know. Is/was Aish aware of this stuff?

kol tuv,
josh

joshwaxman said...

Akiva:
cool.

S. said...

>I don't know. Is/was Aish aware of this stuff?

On the one hand they definitely are just because, come on, of course they are. You think they never paid attention when the Codes were a media story 15 or so years ago, and already Christian codes were being found?

On the other hand, from personal knowledge I know they are aware of it, because in a roundabout way they address it in their presentation (or at least they did in one I saw). They "explain" how some codes are fake or "statistically meaningless" as they put it. They do this by giving a code that seems impressive, something tying (no pun intended) Yitzchak, the akedah and the Holocaust. After everyone oohs and ahhs they explain that this particular code isn't meaningful. At this point you're supposed to be eating out of their hands and accept that the ones they tell you are meaningful are in fact meaningful. I realize that this is probably mostly for the purpose of the trick the way I explained it, but I think it's also to demonstrate more generally that lots of stuff which people are saying about the codes are crap.

joshwaxman said...

while i admit that it is eminently possible, i am not entirely sure that they are so aware. (just as pro-Jewish autistic FC are often blissfully unaware that there are similarly Christian autistics with messages from Jesus.) if they were only arguing with the Jewish and non-Jewish statisticians opposed to it, because of "wiggle room", they might be trying to preempt that particular argument. (the famous one I've heard in a pro-Codes / anti-Codes debate is findnig predictions of Princess Diana's death by use of Codes found in War and Peace (iirc).

the best way to find out might be to simply ask them.

kt,
josh

yeshivish said...

Josh, In the demonstration that I went to it was explained that all spelling is decided before hand. Are they simply lying?

S. said...

>Josh, In the demonstration that I went to it was explained that all spelling is decided before hand. Are they simply lying?

What is that supposed to prove (even if true)? If so, then it simply doesn't matter which spelling they use, because they seem to be contending that whatever they happened to pick will yield results. How can they decide if it should be Rambam, Maymuni, Moshe ben Maimon, etc.? If any one they choose yields results then its meaningless. Is the contention that somehow in advance they figured out the right way to spell the things? Do they tell you what didn't yield results?

Josh, you could be right.

joshwaxman said...

yes, iirc, they do make that claim about their initial study. to be more specific, that they did not choose the topic or the spellings, but rather that they used some encyclopedia, and those rabbis that merited a specific number of columns made the cut. then, they used the spellings from this encyclopedia. and that they chose this methodology prior to testing if such names would be found. this would be a good response to wiggle-claims.

this prompted this official non-response.

now, i don't know statistics, certainly not sufficiently to evaluate this. but a much deeper question / problem can be found by choosing any page at random in Minchas Shai, and reading it.

kol tuv,
josh

Anonymous said...

"I'll end this by stating that not only was this not a case of a dybbuk, but there never was a case a dybbuk."

Theres a well known case that happened by the Chofetz Chaim and there were witnesses.

Supposedly the Chofetz Chaim made a decree that there will be no more dybbukim.

joshwaxman said...

"theres a well known case that happened by the Chofetz Chaim and there were witnesses."

yes, i know of this case. alas, the Chofetz Chaim was wrong. if this is so, and not urban legend, then this was also a case of a meshuggenah, who misled the Chofetz Chaim.

kol tuv,
josh

Anonymous said...

In the 1920's there was a famous dybbuk (a wandering spirit that
is sent back into this world and seeks to possess the body of a living
being) that overtook the body of a young girl. The Chofetz Chaim
commanded the dybbuk to leave the girl's body. The dybbuk obliged stating
that the Chofetz Chaim was so great that in heaven he was perceived as
being from the Tannaic period. Rabbi Shimon Schwab zt'l testified that he
saw the window which was singed when the dybbuk shot out and departed
from the girl's body. Rabbi Elchanan Wasserman zt'l wrote that that
dybbuk would be the last ever. "However," concludes Rabbi Yaakov, "it is
possible that in places of extreme holiness and sanctity there can indeed
be another dybbuk".

With all do respect to you Josh, the Chofetz Chaim wasnt a Rav Batzri. He was about 1000x greater maybe 10,000 I dont know the numbers. Besides for that he was probably amongst the greatest minds of his generation. He was beyond brilliant, the case was a young girl and I think he would have seen if it was mental illness or something else. You are seriously underestimating the greatness and intelligence of the Chofetz Chaim!

joshwaxman said...

this, i've heard.

"it is possible that in places of extreme holiness and sanctity there can indeed be another dybbuk"

so why did rav batzri believe that in Brazil, of all places, a dybbuk would appear? and why did so many of the Gedolim endorse this as a possibility? did they disbelieve Rav Elchanan Wasserman? or did they believe that Brazil is so holy?

the Chafetz Chaim may indeed have been so holy. you cannot measure, and I cannot measure. He was a great talmid Chacham. Though that does not mean that we (and by "we" I mean not me, but poskim) would not often rule against him, and like the Aruch HaShulchan.

However, he was not an expert in mental illness. Indeed, who was an expert in mental illness at that time? Freud?! Being great in one area does not necessarily make one an expert in another area. And being that this is not repeatable, such that outside experts could observe and be able to figure out what is actually happened.

I am reminded of this video,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI&feature=player_embedded
and in particular the segment from 1:50 until 3:00. Check it out.

kol tuv,
josh

Anonymous said...

Josh

Im sorry but I think Rav Batzri is a naive person and not living in reality. He may be a "mekubal" and he may try to live a holy life, but he is by far not recognized as from the greater Mekubalim he is not really recognized amongst the true mekubalim (like the family of the Baba Sali, Rabbi Hillel....)

As for the Gedolim, they didnt even agree to see him, they accepted a possibility of it being a real Dybbuk but wouldnt meet him which tells me they had their doubts. Rav Shternbuch said from the get go that it was mental illness.

Frankly, I think if you or I had met with the guy we would have came to the same conclusion, that he was nuts.

The Chofetz Chaim may not have been a medical Dr, but I am willing to venture that he understood a lot more about true psychology than the pychologists of his day just as Rav Yisroel Salanter understood a lot more about psychology than Freud did.

Today almost all mainstream psychologists have rejected Freuds ideas.

Unfortunately we dont have anyone who comes close, to coming close, to coming close to the Madreiga of the Chafeitz Chaim. I certainly believe that in the story with the Chofeitz Chaim there was a real dybbuk as none of the people there were fools by any stretch.
Additionally, the dybbuk in the time of the Chofeitz Chaim said things that it could not know. It said personal things and mentioned sins of those who were present and there was NO WAY this little girl knew these things without it being a real Dybbuk.

Listen, you may not like to hear these things, but not so long ago there were people like Rav Elyah Lopian who supposedly learned with Eliyahu Hanavi Bchavrusa as well as the Gerrer Rebbe and other great people of that generation. This is only a handful of decades ago or so.
Sadly the rate of Yeridas Hadoros is on fast forward but dont forget, we had great people like that not so long ago and there are things that happen or which have happened which are supernatural.

There are plenty of stories of supernatural things that happened with the Acharonim. Look into the story with the Kli Yakar. You have wizards, magic, spells, and you have the Maharal using Kabbalah and fighting against the dark forces of black magic and Tumah.

You can disbelieve all you want but that wont make it go away.

S. said...

Just to cut through the fog a little, what I think Josh means is that dybbuks are fiction. They don't exist, won't exist, didn't exist and that's all there is to it. Thus, the fact that in one particular case a group of the Litvish elite among bochurim and rabbonim who would go on to essentially found and shepherd the post-war yeshiva world said they were sure they witnessed a dybbuk is about as meaningful as if they'd said they witnessed an incarnation of the Virgin Mary. Why? Because the Virgin Mary is a fiction, there is no Virgin Mary, was no Virgin Mary and won't be a Virgin Mary. You can of course strongly disagree, but that's what is happening here. Piling on additional reasons like the greatness of the Chofetz Chaim, amazing things people claim the little girl knew, etc. doesn't change the fundamental difference of opinion.

Incidentally, your citing the stories of the Maharal is very telling. They are certainly fictional, and no one claimed he was a miracle worker until he was gone already for centuries.

Anonymous said...

S
Our Rabbonim and Gedolim like the Chofetz Chaim, Chazon Ish and the great people before them believed in Dybbukim.
I am willing to accept that today there are no Dybbukim, but if the Chofetz Chaim, Chazon Ish GRA and other greats said that there are Dybbukim, Ill take their word for it, they know a lot more about these things than you and I will ever know in 5 lifetimes.

As for the Maharal, I specifically was not referring to the Golem. All agree that even if the Maharal didnt make a Golem he was certainly "on the level" to make one.

Dont discredit something just because it doesnt make sense to you or you dont know enough about it.

joshwaxman said...

or, at the least, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". i don't consider appeal to authority to be this extraordinary evidence. especially since the skills to be an expert debunker of this stuff is not the same as the skills to be a brilliant Talmid Chacham.

as for the Gra, though his believing or disbelieving would not change anything, i argued in the past that is possible that he did not believe in them, or in maggidim.

kol tuv,
josh

S. said...

>Our Rabbonim and Gedolim like the Chofetz Chaim, Chazon Ish and the great people before them believed in Dybbukim.

Naturally both Josh and I know this. I also don't understand why you refer to the Chofetz Chaim's brilliance, when clearly your position is their greatness is what counts here.

>As for the Maharal, I specifically was not referring to the Golem.

Neither did I! Did I mention the Golem? Please tell me which mofsim the Maharal is considered to have performed during or close to his lifetime, and where these are written.

>Dont discredit something just because it doesnt make sense to you or you dont know enough about it.

Does this apply to everything? Virgin Mary too? At a certain point you have to have some confidence in your position - and in fact, you already do. Why then shouldn't I?

Anonymous said...

S
Im referring to both the Chofetz Chaims and Chazon Ish's greatness and their brilliance. They werent naive simpletons. They were people holy and extremely deep and intelligent people. If you think the Chofetz Chaim could be in the presence of a mentally ill child and think its a Dybbuk and be wrong you obviously have no appreciation for who the Chofetz Chaim was. He was certainly well aware of the concept of mental illness. There is no doubt that he wasnt someone who "jumped to conclusions" and was able to think things through on a level we can never grasp. If the conclusion he came to based on what he knew about Dybbukim then it was a Dybbuk.

We are Hashems nation and many things exist in our religion that are supernatural and difficult to understand or explain.

How do you explain Eliyahu the prophet and others going up to heaven alive? Or all the miracles that happened daily in the Bais Hamikdash?

How do you explain that many tzaddikim have learned Bchavrusa with Eliyahu, or with angels?
How do you explain well known cases of people going to Tzaddikim for Brachos and the Brachos being fulfilled.

We dont even have to go that far back. There are people alive today who can tell you all kinds of unbelievable miracles that occurred by the Rav Moshe Feinstein, Baba Sali, Chazon Ish, the Steipler. Stories of Ruach Hakodesh...
There are many supernatural elements in our religion.

S. said...

>Im referring to both the Chofetz Chaims and Chazon Ish's greatness and their brilliance. They werent naive simpletons.

As if to say, if their greatness was not enough then there is a second argument, I can rely on their being extremely smart? Or is it one argument? The brilliance, lack of naivete can easily be dismissed if it's its own argument. So what? A lot of smart people believe things that are incorrect. Do you then mean to say that it's all one argument? If so, their greatness is not enough?

As for the rest, I don't see how X proves Y. If tzadikim give brachos which are fulfilled that doesn't mean there ever was such a thing as a dybbuk which wasn't really a mental illness.

joshwaxman said...

i'll jump in here to make a few points.

"They werent naive simpletons."
I'm pretty sure that I am not a naive simpleton. I'm also pretty sure that had I lived back then, I also would not be a naive simpleton, but that I would have fallen for the trick, if there was one.

Making an error which one is conditioned to make based on the intellectual environment and assumptions of the time does not make one a simpleton.

in fact, i would wager that i am making quite a number of errors which will only become apparent and "obvious" a few centuries from now.

"We are Hashems nation and many things exist in our religion that are supernatural and difficult to understand or explain."
Before pronouncing it "our religion", consider that Rambam argued with many of his contemporaries over whether witchcraft, or demons, existed.

"How do you explain Eliyahu the prophet and others going up to heaven alive?"
I would point out that if not for a troubling pasuk at the end of Malachi, there are other ways of understanding those pesukim.

but is a good question nonetheless. where does one draw the line? how come a rationalist is not an atheist? conversely, would you echo Tertullian and proclaim "Credo quia absurdum" ("I believe because it is absurd")?

"How do you explain well known cases of people going to Tzaddikim for Brachos and the Brachos being fulfilled."
I'll seize upon your language and ask if you know about the not-well-known cases of people going to tzaddikim for brachos with no fulfillment. This is a reporting issue, that one Rebbe can give thousands of brachos, and we only hear of the 5 instances in which, luckily, the situation resolved, and conclude that it was a miracle based on his blessing.

There is a fundamental disagreement we are having here in world-view. One is a rationalist perspective while the other is a mystical perspective. Everything gets filtered through these lenses. Which is why neither side will be able to convince the other.

kol tuv,
josh

Anonymous said...

Josh

There were I believe 10 daily miracles in the 1st Bais Hamikdosh. Explain that one away. Explain how the Kohen Gadols at the end of the 2nd Bais Hamikdosh who lacked the kedusha the position required, died within a year of securing the appointment year after year(Yoma 8b; 9a)
Explain the neis Chanukah....theres many more...

I know that Rabbis have given 1000's of blessings. Thats not the point, there are times where they bless and say Bracha Vhatzlacha everything will be ok, and there are times when someone is about to die and the Dr's have given up hope and the Tzaddik says, "he will not die and he will still live many years..." and it happens. Or people who medically couldnt have children and were given Bracha guarantees by Tzaddikim and had children.
There are many documented stories with the Chofetz Chaim, Chazon Ish Steipler Baba Sali and many others. Including all the Chassidish Rebbes from the baal shem tov down to the recent Rebbes. Ever hear of the Ribnitzer?

Hashem gave the power of Blessing to Avraham and it has been passed down. Tzaddikim who are on the level have the power to bless and it comes true.

If you dont want to believe I cant convince you but its not a matter of belief, or disbelief because like I said the people who had the stories happen to them can give testimony.

Im not sure being in denial is the same as disbelief.

joshwaxman said...

"Explain that one away."
I don't need to. Belief in nissim, as a manifestation of Hashem's providence and favor does not mean that I need to believe in leprechauns. That is the point I was trying to make. The Rambam, also, believed in the nes Chanukka but not in leprechauns. Tertullian is wrong.

"and it happens"
while this may indeed be as a result of the bracha, hearing or witnessing such an anecdote proves nothing. to explain why would take to long, and even if I explained it you would not accept it. but i'll try this: read this wikipedia entry.

"There are many documented stories"
leaving aside the accuracy issues of the documentation (as many such stories are made up to inspire), without knowing the number and outcome of the undocumented stories, this is useless. Again, see above in the Wikipedia entry, and combine it with the issue of selective reporting.

regardless, believing that Hashem fulfills the heartfelt wishes of very righteous people is different than believing in leprechauns.

kol tuv,
josh

Anonymous said...

Josh

I dont know how leprechauns made it into the conversation.

I dont believe every story I hear but when I am told personal testimony of first hand stories that people had with Tzaddikim I believe it.

Additionally about the Rambam,
many Rishonim argue on his beliefs about magic, like Rashi and Ramban and they say that using Kochos Hatumah and Sheimos of Hashem one can do black magic although techinically magic isnt the right word to use per-se.

Why dont you believe in Dybbukim? Or do you not believe in Zohar, and any Kabbalah altogether?

joshwaxman said...

"I dont know how leprechauns made it into the conversation"
I'll try to explain. I was trying to make a dramatic distinction between miracles or acts of God, on the one hand, and belief in witchcraft, demons, etc. on the other.

rambam clearly made such a distinction. so did many other rationalists. so do it.

what is a nes? apparently, for you, it is a demonstration that there is no derech hateva, or that there is far more to derech hateva than we can perceive. for me, it is either Hashem usurping the natural order for some important purpose, or else (as per Ibn Ezra, I would guess) working through improbable yet possible natural order.

as such, for you, miracles from Hashem in the Beis Hamikdash somehow prove that dybbuks are possible (or probable). For me, one has nothing to do with the other. That Hashem makes a nes doesn't mean that derech hateva, also a creation of Hashem, doesn't exist. (continued...)

joshwaxman said...

similarly, you point to brachot as evidence of dybbuks. this is because you imagine (again, i am dramatizing this) the rebbes as a bunch of wizards, who have received the power of blessings in an energy flow from Avraham Avinu. meanwhile, my understanding of brachot is God-centered, rather than people-centered. these people are tzaddikim, and Tzaddik Gozer veHakadosh Baruch Hu Mekayem. Hashem is the actor, rather than the blessing (or the person) being the actor.

That Hashem listens to the prayers of people, and to the prayers of the righteous, does not prove that the natural order does not exist, and therefore that dybbuks are real.

Or, for that matter, that leprechauns are real.

"Or do you not believe in Zohar, and any Kabbalah altogether?"
If you want start with this link, all though the posts are ordered in backwards order.

kol tuv,
josh

Devorah said...

If there's anyone reading this who wants to know more about demons, there is a shiur by Rabbi Mizrahi:


http://www.divineinformation.com/audios-english/dreams-and-demons/

Anonymous said...

Josh
You misunderstood me but maybe its my fault for not being clear.

I agree with you on Neis and Bracha. Tzaddik Gozer veHakadosh Baruch Hu Mekayem. Even though Hashem gave Avraham the Koach to bless its still Hashem doing it which is Tzaddik Gozer veHakadosh Baruch Hu Mekayem. That is my belief with regards to Tzaddikim, Rebbes, do I think everyone who calls himself Rabbi has this power? NO! I think certain people who get to the level of Tzaddik and have worked on themselves to the point that they are worthy that Hashem is mekayem their Brachos. There used to be more people like that in earlier centuries but in this day and age there are very few Tzaddikim on this level. But supposedly every generation has 36 "hidden" Tzaddikim so theres no generation without its Tzaddikim who can give such Brachos.

As for Dybbuks, I just read a whole thing on dybbukim on the Yeranen Yaakov blog. Do you not believe what he wrote there Bshem all those Gedolim (Rav Dushnitzer, Lopian...et al.)?

joshwaxman said...

"but in this day and age there are very few Tzaddikim on this level"

on the other hand, I would point out that Chazal say that even the bracha of a hedyot should not be kal in your eyes.

but all this is tangential to dybbuks.

"on the Yeranen Yaakov blog"
if you look at the comments on that post, you'll see that i commented on it at the time.

"Do you not believe what he wrote there Bshem all those Gedolim"
I'll have to look again. But my guess is that my response is: yes, they experienced something which they interpreted as a dybbuk. yet, there was no dybbuk.

just as several Gedolim endorsed Facilitated Communication by autistics as real, after meeting with the autistics. But because they do not possess the very particular skills to determine what is going on in such a case, they believed something which is not true, and endorsed it.

if i recall correctly, as someone in the know told me at the time, the Amshinover Rebbe met this meshuggenah from Brazil. and the Amshinover is a very perceptive person, yet he believed that the dybbuk was real. my take is that it is the nature of such things, rather than a pegam on the great rabbis who were fooled.

kol tuv,
josh

Anonymous said...

I would venture to day that
1. The Tzaddikim of the last century knew more about Dybbukim

2. Additionally it was more prevalent then.

3. The stories from Yearnen Yaakov are hard to refute. They are eye witness accounts and the Dybbuk knew things it couldnt otherwise know and said specific things about each person. How do you explain that?

S. said...

>3. The stories from Yearnen Yaakov are hard to refute. They are eye witness accounts and the Dybbuk knew things it couldnt otherwise know and said specific things about each person. How do you explain that?

There's no way to know if the dybbuk knows things that s/ he/ it can't know. First of all, we can never be sure that most things we say and do are not seen or overheard without our knowledge. Secondly, it's not so hard to guess certain things. For example, if I told a 16 year old bochur that he is nichshal in zera levatala he may be impressed that I know his secret sin, but really I just know that he's 16 and made a very good (and easy) guess.

Besides, the testimony of people who already believe in dybbukim is suspect, because this confirms what they already believed. To the extent that dybukkim "strenghthen" people's emunah, all the more powerful a reason to see and experience what you are conditioned to see. I'd find the testimony of skeptics who subsequently became believers at least a little more convincing. So if Josh is ever told his deepest secrets by a dybbuk I'd want to know about it.

Devorah said...

Panic Strikes Trinidad and Tobago School After 'Devil Attack'

Panic broke out at Trinidad and Tobago high school after students fell mysteriously ill, began rolling on the ground and blabbering in a strange tongue, triggering fears of a demon attack, the Guardian Trinidad and Tobago reported.

Seventeen female students at Moruga Composite School began the strange behavior after suffering from nausea and headaches. Two of the students reportedly tried to throw themselves off a railing and had to be physically restrained.

Teachers took the students into the multi-purpose hall where some of them fell into a semi-conscious state. One student, Kern Mollinea, told the paper that the girls were unusually strong, and many of them had bruises.

Mollineau also claimed he communicated with the “Devil” who had possessed the girl. “I asked the Devil what he wanted with the girls and the voice said he wanted a life. He kept saying to send the girls in the toilet and to leave them alone.”

Roman Catholic priests and pastors from nearby churches visited the school to shower the children with holy water and prayers.

Authorities said that there was nothing in the environment to trigger fainting spells, nausea and headaches among the students.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/11/17/panic-strikes-trinidad-tobago-school-devil-attack

joshwaxman said...

to echo S. a bit...

point 1 and 2 are difficult to prove or disprove. it might have been more prevalent because of lack of psychotropic drugs or greater willingness to fall for such things.

om terms of point 3, what he said. but to expand on the point a bit, this is something any fake psychic (including many modern 'kabbalist' frauds out to part you from your wallet) worth his salt can do. read this Wikipedia article on cold reading and other techniques. and non-experts will not recognize that these techniques are being implemented.

devorah, i'll respond in a bit.

kol tuv,
josh

Anonymous said...

Josh
Cold reading has its limits,
Additionally we are talking about a case where they were just standing there not looking to be read or given any advice or told about their sins...
How would a little girl know how to cold read?! Gimme a break...

S. said...

>Cold reading has its limits,

If you really think about it, that phrase doesn't have anything to do with it. Can you give some examples of information that was given which could not have been guessed through cold reading?

As for how the little girl could know, as you saw in the Wiki page, cold reading is not something that many who do it are conscious of.

To me that are three things here.

1) First we have to determine if in fact anything really unknown was ever told by a person thought to be possessed by a dybbuk, and if so was it significant and specific?

2) Did the dybbuk make mistakes too, only no one noticed?

3) What impact does belief in dybbuks (or psychics) have on what it is that they experience? Could a dybbuk tell a room full of Christopher Hitchens spooky things about them that no one could know or guess?

joshwaxman said...

I agree with S.
But I'll add a bit.

"Cold reading has its limits,"
sure. do you know what those limits are? more than that, do you know the particulars of the "things she couldn't have known" to assert that this was beyond said limits?

besides, there is also warm reading, shotgunning, etc., as techniques.

while these have some limits, charlatans still employ them and often make quite a good living off of them.

"Additionally we are talking about a case where they were just standing there not looking to be read or given any advice or told about their sins..."
are you sure they did not engage in any conversation with this girl, at all? (by little girl, I assume you mean the Chofetz Chaim case, because in the other case you mentioned, I think it was as woman.) they believed it to (likely) be a dybbuk. imagine she said to the general room, "you don't always remember to make a bracha acharona!" one person reacts imperceptibly, and so the targets him with her followup. just as a possible example.

"How would a little girl know how to cold read?!"
first, as the wikipedia article explains, some people have a natural knack for it, and can even do it subconsciously. further, if the purpose was fame and fortune, by misleading these rabbis, then she might have been coached in the technique.

furthermore, since a lot of these cases involve ventriloquism (consider this recent Rav Batzri case), then it could have been the father or mother throwing their voice.

that video i linked to above is extremely relevant. did you view it? we don't have access to the scene in which this occurs. so there are all sorts of possible explanations which might reveal themselves upon deep investigation, but we simply cannot know. instead, we have to rely on accounts from the parties involved, or else second or third hand accounts, by people who are not skilled in the art of detecting such fraud.

when you hear hoofbeats, do you think horses or zebras?

kt,
josh

joshwaxman said...

Devorah:
it sounds to me like the known phenomenon called "mass hysteria". See here. To cite this article:

"Mass hysteria — other names include collective hysteria, group hysteria, Mass Psychogenic Illness, or collective obsessional behavior — is the sociopsychological phenomenon of the manifestation of the same or similar hysterical symptoms by more than one person.[1][2] A common manifestation of mass hysteria occurs when a group of people believe they are suffering from a similar disease or ailment."

Indeed, I would point out that the symptoms match. As you wrote, "Seventeen female students at Moruga Composite School began the strange behavior after suffering from nausea and headaches."

To cite from the Wikipedia article:

"Mass hysteria typically begins when an individual becomes ill or hysterical during a period of stress.[4] After this initial individual shows symptoms, others begin to manifest similar symptoms, typically nausea, muscle weakness, fits or headache.[5]"

As to the Devil bit of it, this is not just superstition but likely idolatry. They believe in two reshuyot, one of God/Jesus, and the other of the Devil. IIRC, a few years back, Rabbi Tendler said that a pronouncement by the pope that the Devil was real, independent, and opposed to God meant that Catholicism was absolutely avoda zara, more so than other branches of Christianity, with practical halachic consequences. So I wouldn't put much stock in a bunch of idolators suffering from mass hysteria, as proof of the existence of dybbuks.

Just as I am sure you wouldn't put any stock in the reality of penis-melting zionist robot combs, even though a bunch of normal people in Sudan have experienced this.

kol tuv,
josh

Anonymous said...

Josh and S
From YeranenYakov blog
"This story - you can and should tell publicly, and you can preface it by saying that I told this to you, exactly as I heard it from the known Gaon in Israel - Moreinu Harav Elazar Moshe Z"l from Pinsk, and you know me that I don't lie, חס ושלום, and I don't exaggerate or add anything with this - I am rather relaying word for word as I heard it from the aforementioned HaGaon R' Elazar Moshe.

This is the story:

There was a man in Kelm who was a merchant and Torah-knowledgeable whose name was R' Neta (they used to call him R' Notil), and he had one daughter. He married her off to a Yeshiva Bahur who excelled and was a Talmid Hacham, and gave him a dowry of many thousands of rubles along with many years of eating at his table while the son-in-law would sit and learn Torah. When the allotted time was up, and the couple could no longer eat at his table, the daughter started claiming, "What will we eat?!" The husband answered her that he cannot leave Torah and do business and throw all his Torah to the sea... Until she gave him the advice and said: "We'll take the dowry money and open a store and I will stand there all day long except for 2 hours of the day, when you will stand there [to man the store] so the rest of the hours of the day you can use to continue learning Torah as before." The husband agreed, and that's what they did.

For the first 3 months, this was how it worked, but afterwards, the 2 hours turned into 4 hours, and then 8, etc., etc. until he was fully engrossed in the business... and he didn't even have time to open a Gemara...

Anonymous said...

One Motza'ei Shabbat after midnight, where there was a huge snowstorm and blizzard, (I am relating this like the language and form that I heard it from Moreinu VeRabbeinu Z"l) this woman went outside to pour a barrel of unclean water out, and she returned home as if she was choking and could not speak... Her husband ran immediately and quickly got a doctor to come to his house, and he did not know what to do, and the next day too... he went with her and sought [the advice of] many doctors and they also traveled to the city of Vienna, without success. They started talking in the town that maybe this is a Dybbuk..

They traveled to the city of Shtuchin, where there was a Mekubal by the name of R' Mendel Z"l, to whom people traveled for such cases. When they came before him, he asked the Dybbuk some question, and he heard a voice answering, and as is known, when a Dybbuk speaks, the ill host's stomach is raised up, but the lips do not move, and a voice comes out (these were Moreinu VeRabbeinu Z"l's words), and then, all those who heard were astounded and said, "Aha! It's a Dybbuk..." However, the Tzaddik R' Mendel said that he doesn't know yet if it's true, so he asked it, "Who is going with you (i.e. the transmigrating soul)?" It replied, "5 destructive angels." He asked it, "What are their names?" It replied with the names of the angels... Then, R' Mendel said that it's true - this is a true Dybbuk.

He started to ask it questions, for example, "Who are you?" It said to me that he was a Bahur in Brisk dozens of years ago (I don't remember exactly how many), and then went to Africa, and his friends corrupted him there, and he Rahmana Litzlan transgressed the entire Torah, and then traveled on a wagon, which he fell off and was killed. And that is how he is - he is transmigrating continuously in the world until now. He told it, "Why did you not do Teshuva right before you died?" It answered him that because of the fear and craziness at the moment he fell from the wagon, he forgot to do think Teshuva [at that time].

Anonymous said...

Afterwards, he asked it, "What do you have against this woman that you caused her such terrible suffering?" It started laughing out loud and said, "This girl's mother and her husband's mother (both of whom already had passed to the next world) had strenghtened themselves with supplication up above in heaven that I should enter her and cause her this suffering, since if it were not for this, she wouldn't have what to stand on in this world or the next world! This is because she took her husband away from being busy learning Torah!..."

Once they heard this, R' Mendel said to the husband that he should promise to return to Torah, and he promised. R' Notil similarly promised to learn Mishnayot for the uplifting of the soul of the Bahur - the Dybbuk and also a certain amount of candles to be lit in the synagogue for him. Afterwards, R' Mendel gathered a minyan of 10 men into his room and they said Tehilim, and he stood behind them and he said what he said, while he put the woman on a chair in the middle of the room. Suddenly, she rolled from the chair to the floor and a powerful voice came out from her [saying] "Shema Yisrael..." - the entire town of Shtuchin heard this voice. Afterwards, the fingernail of the pinky of one of her hands burst open, and one glass from the window was broken, and she became quiet...


Until here is what Moreinu Harav Eliyahu Hakohen Dushnitzer told me. He repeated his words again and said that you may retell this story in my name, and you know me that I don't lie Has VeShalom and I also do not exaggerate - I have only related to you exactly as I heard it from the mouth of the Ga'on R' Elazar Moshe Z"l.

Moreinu VeRabbeinu Z"l [Rav Dushnitzer] added these words, and I quote, "However, I recently heard that this aforementioned couple who are already elderly - coming in age - they came to Eretz Yisrael and they live in Tel Aviv, and they have a large family here of children and grandchildren. You also know them. However, I will not tell you their names because it can harm them for Shidduchim... On one Motza'ei Shabbat, I traveled from Petah Tikva to Tel Aviv and I stayed at their house, and they themselves told me the entire story, just as I heard it from the Ga'on R' Elazar Moshe and as I related to you." Endquote from Moreinu VeRabbeinu Z"l [Rav Dushnitzer].

If you read the above story "They traveled to the city of Shtuchin, where there was a Mekubal by the name of R' Mendel Z"l, to whom people traveled for such cases. When they came before him, he asked the Dybbuk some question, and he heard a voice answering, and as is known, when a Dybbuk speaks, the ill host's stomach is raised up, but the lips do not move, and a voice comes out (these were Moreinu VeRabbeinu Z"l's words), and then, all those who heard were astounded and said, "Aha! It's a Dybbuk..." However, the Tzaddik R' Mendel said that he doesn't know yet if it's true, so he asked it, "Who is going with you (i.e. the transmigrating soul)?" It replied, "5 destructive angels." He asked it, "What are their names?" It replied with the names of the angels... Then, R' Mendel said that it's true - this is a true Dybbuk."

Theres no way the woman could have known this.
Of course you will say something ridiculous like "she was a closet Mekubal and she read through all the sefarim on Kabbalah and knew the names of these 5 angels"
But in that case, I am not speaking with intellectually honest people so I have no further purpose in discussing any of this.

Ill await a reasonable response...

joshwaxman said...

does this mean you accept my answers re the previous story as plausible?

"Ill await a reasonable response..."

reasonable is in they eye of the beholder.

this story is like the other. we have no independent access to the scene of the 'crime' to be able to verify this, or spot reasonable alternative explanations.

"and knew the names of these 5 angels"
do you mean Uriel, Charvonah, Azriel, Simkiel, and Za'afiel (among others -- Af, Kolazonta, and Chema)? or maybe the five angels who lead the souls of men to judgment: Arakiel, Remiel, Uriel, Samiel, and Aziel?

might it be that some or all of these might have been mentioned in a tefillah said by the superstitious masses, to protect them from these destructive angels?

For example, I happen to know that Segef and Agaf are angels of destruction invoked at the end of Shabbat.

How certain are you that other destructive angels were not known by the common folk.

Actually, more than that. You take as a given the righteousness of Moreinu Harav Elazar Moshe Z"l from Pinsk, even though you likely have never heard of this person before in your life. But they all went to a known kabbalist, R' Mendel. What do you know of this kabbalist? More importantly, what did these rabbis know of this kabbalist? Did they know kabbalah to give him a fa'her, to make certain that he was not a fraud?

How do you know that this was not arranged beforehand by this R' Mendel and the woman as a hoax to bring the kabbalist more business, just as in the case from several years ago, where the woman supposedly possessed by a dybbuk claims that it was a hoax arranged by Rav Batzri? If so, the kabbalist could have accepted any names, or could have instructed her beforehand what names to give.

This just off the top of my head. Yet, it seems to me much more plausible that the leap to the conclusion that it must be a dybbuk.

kol tuv,
josh

Anonymous said...

Josh

I just want to say one more point. You seem very focused on contemporary society and the world as it is today. You are comparing Rav Batzri of today to a story of 100 years ago or more. It was a totally different world in many respects. Today we have many fake Mekubalim, but I highly doubt there were many or any years ago. It would serve no purpose because there were enough real holy men for people to see right through a fake. He wouldnt get any real attention like today where news flies around the world in a second due to the internet. A fake Mekubal would get nowhere. Even big Tzaddikim, it took years for their name to spread all over the world. In those days people had a much better idea who was for real and who wasnt. Today there are probably more fakes than real mekubalim. You cant compare.
Additionally, if all people knew the names of the angels then Rav Mendel obviously wouldnt have taken that as a sign of its authenticity.
I dont know how you know the names but you likely either learned through a lot of sefarim or have seen it somewhere on the web. In those days there was less access to sefarim and there was certainly no internet.
Another point, those days (before the bais yakov movement) most women at best knew how to read some Tehillim. Many were illiterate. To assume she knew the names of the angels is VERY EXTREMELY highly unlikely.

joshwaxman said...

"unlikely"
yet it is one possibility. and all sorts of possibilities exist, and might be more evident if only we had access to the scene of the crime. but we don't. anyway, this is your own assessment. she couldn't know the angels from a tefillah, having heard or said it, rather than reading it? heaving heard her husband saying it? it not being accessible is also an assumption, which you are making without real evidence. because we have no access to the evidence.

"You are comparing Rav Batzri of today to a story of 100 years ago or more."
that there is a difference is an article of faith for you, similar to yeridas hadoros. i am fairly certain that there were fake kabbalists back then. you have a romanticized picture of the world back then, which I feel is inaccurate.

when Yirmeyahu and Chulda were around, there were plenty of nevi'ei sheker.

I'll add another point that you won't like. A year or so ago, Rafi G. of Life In Israel posted what he heard from one of the Gedolim, that it is permitted to make up miracle stories in order to inspire the masses. What if the rabbis who told this over believed that such lying is muttar lehalacha, and indeed a mitzvah? if so, why should we believe his statement that he is not lying?

kt,
josh

Anonymous said...

Josh
If there was any possibility of common folk knowing the esoteric names of these 5 angels than this Kabbalist would not have taken her to be possessed by a Dybbuk. Obviously it was a fool proof method.

Bringing in Navi Sheker is comparing apples and oranges. Obviously at a time when there was open Nevuah you would have fakers! They were Rishoyim that wanted to carry on living sinful lives so they argued against the real Neviim. It has nothing to do with our conversation.

Another point, you are off the wall if you think the Chofetz Chaim or Rav Eliah Lopian would "make up" anything. You have no inkling who they were and I am disgusted that you could think this way.

Anonymous said...

Just in case you think you know anything about the Gedolim of yesteryear.
Heres a little anecdote I read from someone who was a talmid of the Chofetz Chaim.

"I noticed that whenever the Chofetz Chaim saw a fly or some other pest that he wanted to chase away he would hold the corner of his tallis or his handkerchief, but he would never use his bare hands. Also he never touched his face with his hands.

"For many years I could not understand the reason for this; the face is considered a naturally-exposed area of the body which one may see and touch. Recently, after having read the stories written by his son, HaGaon HaRav Leib zt'l I finally understood. Rav Leib told about the time that the Chofetz Chaim fled with the yeshiva and his family from Poland to Russia. It came time to daven Mincha and they entered a shul. `Before davening,' Reb Leib said, `I washed my hands as prescribed by the Shulchan Oruch but I noticed that my father began davening right away. Afterward I asked my father about this and he answered, "I guard my hands at all times!" '

"Now the reasons for the Chofetz Chaim's holy actions finally became clear to me," Rav Farber says. "The Chofetz Chaim was simply cautious that his hands remain tohor at all times and therefore he did not touch anything. Just as he guarded his tongue [from evil speech] he guarded his hands! Therefore, when he had to chase away a fly he would use something to cover his hands.

"From this we can gain an inkling of how the Chofetz Chaim became what he was; just as he guarded his hands he guards his eyes, his tongue-- everything!"

We seriously cant begin to comprehend such greatness. My brain shuts down when I try to process what that means to never touch anything. Think about touching nothing, NOTHING for an hour. Makes your mind freak out no?

You may want to rethink your philosophy of Gedolim.

S. said...

>Ill await a reasonable response...

How do I know that any of this happened?

>Today we have many fake Mekubalim, but I highly doubt there were many or any years ago.

Punkt fakehrt.

S. said...

>We seriously cant begin to comprehend such greatness. My brain shuts down when I try to process what that means to never touch anything. Think about touching nothing, NOTHING for an hour. Makes your mind freak out no?

This what made the Chofetz Chaim great? An obscure - and alleged - perushidike practice?

joshwaxman said...

"If there was any possibility of common folk knowing the esoteric names of these 5 angels than this Kabbalist would not have taken her to be possessed by a Dybbuk."

unless it was a remote possibility, yet combined with the other sign, of speaking from the stomach. or unless he was not actually such a great kabbalist, but thought he was. or unless he was in on the hoax. you don't know.

"Obviously at a time when there was open Nevuah you would have fakers!"
Obviously at a time when there was open kabbalah you would have fakers! That you disagree doesn't make it an 'obvious' point.

"You have no inkling who they were and I am disgusted that you could think this way."
You also have no inkling about the greatness of the modern Gadol who asserted such a thing, that it is a mitzvah to do so. Of course, this would be a terrible thing, because it would undermine our entire masorah.

there is the famous statement (with which i disagree) that if you believe all chassidishe maasos, you are a fool; if you disbelieve all of them, you are a kofer. (alternatively, if you disbelieve that they COULD be true, you are a kofer.) if so, are the people who make up such maysos reshaim?

kol tuv,
josh

joshwaxman said...

"We seriously cant begin to comprehend such greatness."

assuming that he was indeed such a righteous person, what does that have to do with abilities in this particular domain of detecting that someone is doing a cold or warm reading? this is not necessarily the case. or was he also able to perform brain surgery, purely by virtue of his tzidkus?

kt,
josh

S. said...

It seems like anonymous's position is that the combination of greatness (how he defines it) and genius is some sort of foolproof compound, both necessary, neither sufficient by themselves. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

Anonymous said...

Josh

I want to ask you few simple questions.
Question 1.
Please answer do Dybbukim or did Dybbukim ever exist?
There are 3 possible answers that you can choose. Please choose one of the 3.

1.Yes they do exist.
2. No they dont exist.
3. They did exist at one point but ceased to exist.

Question 2.
If your answer was 2. Why do the Kabbalah sefarim discuss their existence and why would the Gedolim of so many generations, many of them Baalei Ruach Hakodesh who plumbed the depths of Nigleh and Nistar believe in such a "Bubbeh Mayse?"

Question 3.
Do you think you are smarter and know better than the Chafeitz Chaim and Chazon Ish as well as all the great Mekubalim going back to the Arizal and before him? Or do you think they just happened to "miss" all the brilliant reasons you have for not believing in supernatural things. (Lets remember that we are discussing Gedolim many of who knew Kal Hatorah Kulah BAAL PEH Nigleh and Nistar and certainly spent a lot more time learning than you did, and covered way greater breadth in the number and variety of seforim learned. Just for a slight concept of how much the Chofetz Chaim learned open up a Mishna Berurah and see how many seforim he says he used its in the beginning intro to Chelek 1 or in some all Chalokim. He had to commit that all to memory before writing the Mishnh Berurah.)

Anonymous said...

Josh

"A year or so ago, Rafi G. of Life In Israel posted what he heard from one of the Gedolim, that it is permitted to make up miracle stories in order to inspire the masses. "

Id love to read the article and know which Rabbi he spoke to. Additionally even if one Rabbi said that it doesnt mean everyone agrees with him and its the official "shita." There is most likely a back story that You and I dont know about.
Just like people go off the handle when Rav Elyashiv says something and then find out that what he really said was something else entirely or just for a specific case and not for everyone, its likely your story is the same or that Rafi G misunderstood.

But you should know better than to suggest that Gedolim like the Chofetz Chaim Rabbi Elyah Lopian and others would make something up. Theres enough real stuff to inspire the masses. The Chofetz Chaim gave many Brachos that came true. I think thats a lot greater than a dybbuk story and will inspire a lot more people when they see how great and holy someone can become.

I dont think Dybbuk stories are Mekarev many people. Its just something cool or spooky. Its too far out for it to effectively inspire anyone.

joshwaxman said...

Question 1:
no, they do not exist, and they never existed. if i had to guess, Jewish belief in dybbuks spread from non-Jewish belief in demonic possession and exorcism.

Question 2:
Certain kabbalah seforim discuss their existence because the authors of these kabbalah seforim believe that dybbuks exist. That does not mean that they do exist. Ask how Rambam disagreed with Chazal as to the existence of sheidim!

A false belief is not necessarily a Bubbe Maaseh. It can simply be incorrect theology as part of a general system of theology. Of course, any *given manifestation* of a dybbuk would be a Bubbe Maaseh.

Question 3:
They operated within a specific intellectual and theological framework, and to use an unfortunate expression, one cannot free oneself from prison. When you asked before about kabbalah, I responded by giving you a link to a series of posts which demonstrate that the Zohar is a late forgery, and that there is no shalshelet hakabbalah for Kabbalah. So sure, I can see how a kabbalist might believe in this. So?

Also, when it comes to halacha (and IMHO machshava), there is a principle of "velo yehdar penei gadol".

Besides this, I would offer another quote, of Isaac Newton: "If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants."

The Gra was indeed a Gaon. Yet he seems to believe (explicitly in contrast to scientists of the time) that the world was flat. Chizkuni believed that semen entering the right chambers of the womb yields male offspring, while those entering the left chambers yield female offspring. Rambam believed in the earth-mouse.

Even if I grant all of your over-the-top praises of these rabbinic figures, drawn from believing every hagiography as if it were entirely factual, that has no bearing on evaluating whether someone is using specific techniques to mislead.

Unless you are saying we must accept all of their theology. Then it comes down to whether we accept as literal and accurate all the statements of kabbalah. I don't. Even though the Zohar speaks of evaluating a person based on physiognomy, I recognize that physiognomy is a pseudo-science, though it was believed as science at the time the Zohar was written.

I told you that you wouldn't like my (orthogonal) suggestion that perhaps the rabbis involved were lying. Is lying really so bad? (I think it is.) But what if your choice was proving Rabbinic Judaism true via this false inspirational story or having all of your talmidim become maskilim or Reformers?

kol tuv,
josh

joshwaxman said...

"He had to commit that all to memory before writing the Mishnh Berurah"

why must he have committed them all to memory? when writing a post on parshablog, I refer to Onkelos and Ohev Ger, and so I consult them. Does this mean I must have memorized them in their entirety? I don't see how this follows.

Anonymous said...

Josh

So you dont believe the Zohar or Kabbalah is authentic? I had skimmed through that link in the past. Its a lot to read through...

Interestingly enough look what I found on Daattorah today.


Rav Moshe Chagiz - concerning authorship of Zohar
משנת חכמים (ס' של"ב): ובגדר אהבת החברים ומעלתה נקבלה האמת ממי שאמרו. כי האמת יורה דרכו דמסדר ומחבר ספר הזוהר הקדוש, דודאי אדם גדול היה דבאו לידו הקונטריסים, ומן השמים זכו אותו להוציא לאור תעלומות חכמה רמה ונעלמה והא סדרי הקונטרסים על סדר הפרשיות. אך לא חלילה רשב"י, או רבי אבא, עשו סדר זו הנמצא בידינו. כי זה טעות ושטות מפורסם, כעין אותם הסוברים שאנו מאמינים דבר שאינו. שהתלמוד כמו שהוא מסודר אצלינו, היה אצל אברהם אבינו דבר שלא עלה במחשבה אצל עם ה' נושא משך הזרע, ואנו תל"י יודעין שלשלת ספר יוחסין של כל התורה שבע"פ איך ומה נשתלשלה ובא לידינו מיד לפה אל פה, עד משה מפי הגבורה.

משנת חכמים (ס' של"ג): ומה שתמצא לרז"ל שאמרו דאברהם אבינו קיים כל התורה אפילו עירובי תבשילין אינו אלא על האופן שכתבתי בהקדמתי הראשונה לספר אלה המצות. שהכל נתגלה לאברהם אבינו כמרז"ל על פסוק וה' אמר הכסה ני מאברהם עי"ש. כדי לסתום את פיהם של המקנטרין שחושבים אותנו לשוטים ולפתי מאמין לכל דבר, וחלילה לעם חכם ונבון להבין הא דאמרו על פסוק ואתנ' לך לוחות, אלו עשרת הדברים תורה, זה מקרא והמצוה זה משנה אשר כתבי אלו נביאים וכתובים, להורותם זה גמרא שכולם נתנו לשמה בסיני. דר"ל כך כמו שהוא אצלינו במכתב דזה שקר מפורסם. דהרי קודם רבינו הקדוש כל דברי התורה שבע"פ לא היה רשאי להעלותם בכתב, א"כ נתינה זו שנתן למשה אינו אלא דפה לפה גילה לו הקב"ה דור דור ודורשיו. וכל מה שתלמיד ותיק עתיד לחדש, ורוב כל אותה קבלה היא מה שנשארה ומצויה אצלינו מאומתת ומאושרת ומקויימת אשר אין לנו במה להסתפק עליה הכל כמו שכתבתי שם בהקדמה הנזכר.

משנת חכמים (ס' שלד): אף הכי בחבור נורא זה מספר הזוהר אין להסתפק בעיקרן של דברים כהוויתן שיצאו מפי רשב"י וחבריו, ולכן המהרהר אחריו כמהרהר אחר השכינה, אך המסדר עשה התקשרות הדרים כאשר עליו ובאו לידו על נכון כדחזי במאמר שהבאתי לעיל בסעיף שכ"ט.

joshwaxman said...

interesting. thanks.

there are enough signs of intentional forgery (rather than mere additions), though, in Zohar, that it is difficult, to say the least, to assume that there is a nougaty center which comes from Rashbi. so too in kabbalah, when people invent fictional Geonim and ascribe writings to them.

kt,
josh

Anonymous said...

Josh

I'm just curious, before accepting such a radical belief and accepting a fringe minority opinion about the Zohar did you discuss this with the great Kabbalists of today? I'm sure there are a # of them in Eretz Yisroel who would be glad to answer your questions.

joshwaxman said...

i'll add that I think there is a way that someone who believes in Zohar and Kabbalah can still disbelieve all these dybbuk stories (e.g., off the top of my head, that dybbuk neshama as opposed to ibbur neshama need not accord with Catholic demonic possession requiring exorcism), but in general I don't like to branch out my arguments too much.

in terms of radicalness, it is not necessarily as radical and fringe as you might believe. just, many people are not as vocal and as straightforward about their beliefs as I am, and I am not about to "out" them.

Rav Yaakov Emden was a major kabbalist and yet he believed that major sections of the Zohar were entirely forged. In terms of responses, there are a number of published responses from the kabbalist camp, which I did not find persuasive. For example, you can read this, published at Chabad.org:
http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380410/jewish/The-Zohars-Mysterious-Origins.htm

For those who don't know, it is persuasive. For those who do, it is embarrassingly ignorant. I was thinking about putting up a point by point response, but got sidetracked with other projects. (For one example out of many, the claim that there is a *Tanna* named Rabbi Abba, mentioned in Bereishit Rabba and Tosefta, such that it is not Rav is just shockingly stupid. The Rabbi Abba in Tosefta *is* Rav, which is part of why we say "tanna hu ufalig". And Bereishit Rabba is from the Amoraim, not the Tannaim, such that it is Rav and even if it were not would provide no evidence of a Tanna by that name.) There are better answers than in the above English article, but still not persuasive.

it would indeed be great to have a one-on-one with a kabbalist, but i think it would be unproductive, first because the domains which disprove kabbalistic authenticity are outside domains. (Semitic linguistics, the history of the orthography of trup and nikkud, the history of the generations of Tanaim and Amoraim.) Plus, personality wise, I am a pussycat in person, and would not argue, out of respect. That is unfortunately my own flaw, demonstrating the statement in Pirkei Avos that ain habayshan lameid.

kol tuv,
josh

Anonymous said...

Josh

Lets talk straight its a very radical and fringe. Besides for Rav Yakov Emden (who himself was known to be a radical figure who got involved in many controversies) who else believes that large portions are forgeries?

Now lets say there are certain inconsistencies, you dont think the great scholars of previous generations who learned Kabbalah didnt notice? They were well versed in Shas Rishonim and Acharonim as well as Zohar and other sefarim, Kbbalah for the most part was only learned by the truly great holy people. People like the Arizal, Rav Chaim Vital, the Chida, you dont think the Chida wouldnt have picked up on it if something wasnt "adding up?" Read his works, he knew it all. Obviously there are answers out there and the real ones you wont find on the web because any Kabbalist worth his salt would not be posting on the internet, no offense to "Kabbalists" who go on the internet.

Im not sure what you were trying to say with Rav and Rabbi Abba. The Rabbi Abba in the Zohar is obviously not Rav because he lived before Rav. If your point is theres no mention of him in the Gemara, thats not a question, I remember learning that the only Tannaim mentioned in Mishnas, Braisos and Amaraim mentioned in the Gemorah are those that had something Halachic to contribute. There were many more Tannaim (lets not forget Rabbi Akiva had 24,000 students who werent mentioned in Shas) so there could have been 10's of thousands of Rabbis who existed at that time that never made it into the Gemara because they had no real contribution worth noting in the Gemara. That doesnt mean they werent great...

I believe you are doing yourself a huge disservice by not speaking to an authentic Mekubal about these issues. There are some very open minded easy going ones that would give you the time of day and be glad to answer any question you have.
Go to Rabbi Gamliel Rabinovitch (Rabinowitz) in Yerushalayim. He sees everyone and hes very down to earth.

You are a knowledgeable person, but even the Gedolim have Rebbes, or went to their Rebbes as long as they were alive. Nobody knows it all and everyone has to have a Rebbi.

Let me quote something I found on Revach.net
The Mishna in Pirkei Avos (3:4) says "ViHaMihalech B'Derech Yichidi... Harei Zeh MisChayev BiNafsho", and he who walks on a path alone... he has forfeited his life." What is so terrible about walking on a road all by yourself, that you would deserve death?

Rav Eliyahu Lopian in Lev Eliyahu says that this Mishna is not referring to a physical path, but rather a spiritual one. We are fortunate enough to have a mesora in hashkafa from Gedolei Olam of previous generations. There are many great seforim and living tzaddikim that tell us very clearly what our Avodas HaChaim is. We are given clear boundaries what is for a Yid and what is not.

The Mishna is talking about a person who dismisses all this, saying that the Torah is given to everyone, and each individual can define the Torah as he sees fit. A person brazen enough to dismiss the teachings and the ways of our heritage, and creates his own synthesis of various polluted hashkafos, paving his own lonely road and creating his own Torah, is Mischayev BiNafsho.

You owe it to yourself to get to the bottom of it.

joshwaxman said...

thanks, but no thanks, for the mussar.

let me make a few clarifications:

1) "besides for Rav Yakov Emden" -- i was bringing Rav Yaakov Emden to try to demonstrate that it was not (necessarily) the case that lack of kabbalistic knowledge is what would lead someone to this conclusion.

Shadal and Chasam Sofer for one, but that is irrelevant. I am not going to start "outing" people in an attempt to justify it. and this is all an unfortunate tangent. dybbuks are nonsense, which is the main point.

2) "you dont think the great scholars of previous generations who learned Kabbalah didnt notice?"
do you realize that this is the very same argument you are using over and over. X and Y believed Z. They were great. therefore, they were right.

You said this for dybbuk 1, dybbuk 2, and now for the authenticity of the Zohar and kabbalah.

3) "Im not sure what you were trying to say with Rav and Rabbi Abba"
this would be too much of a tangent, to elaborate here. my point in this comment thread was merely to point out the stupidity of that particular attempt.

4) "There are some very open minded easy going ones"
I already explained above why there is no point. I'll try again. I would tentatively say X. They would answer Y. And I would nod politely.

Look, Shadal already wrote out a good number of the arguments quite nicely. Wouldn't it be a great service for the Jewish community at large if one of these authentic kabbalists simply wrote a treatise answering these points, one by one? Have Rabbi Gamliel Rabinovitch write it, and then let me know. And I promise to look at it and evaluate it.

Also, don't think that I don't have teachers, and people to turn to for guidance.

At the end of the day, dybbuks are nonsense. They don't exist. And an appeal to authority is not the right way to try to prove to me that they exist.

kol tuv,
josh

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